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free speech concerns in USA and NZ ?
#1
Music 
skip to 2:30

you probably only need to listen up from 2:30 to 3:30 for what I'm going on
I'm not especially sympathetic to the alt-right, but I'm not sure how I feel about these people getting so censored, or companies like Paypal apparently banning users for political reasons?

any thoughts anybody?
I feel like we could tie this into the free speech issues in NZ recently (Molyneux,Southern being deplatformed, Don Brash being uninvited to a Massey Uni event), but I haven't really done any real reading on that either haha
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#2
God fucking god fucking fuck when will someone make the internet 3.0?
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#3
(12-08-2018, 08:28 PM)crispier taco Wrote: but I'm not sure how I feel about these people getting so censored, or companies like Paypal apparently banning users for political reasons?

Sure. But what if they are LITERALLY NAZI'S  and identify as such? I'm pretty sure we have a reasonable tolerance line which we can draw at racist ol Nazi's.


What do you think of Alex Jones being de-platormed? He lost it all expect Twitter and Snapchat (lol) by the looks. I reckon he's full of shit most the time, and you can laugh off how crazy he is for the most part. But to be torn off all his platforms? Right now it's just playing to his ego as he reckons the government wants to stop him from saying all he knows.
Liams Wrote:make a car out of scrap metal from genie lamps
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#4
(13-08-2018, 08:57 PM)NZs no.3 Wrote: I'm pretty sure we have a reasonable tolerance line which we can draw at racist ol Nazi's.
Hey so some social justice warrior types frame video games as rape propaganda, and we should draw lines at rapists. While it's obviously a false equivalence, most of the most extreme white nationalist types will deny being (neo)Nazis even if appropriating Nazi culture and symbols.

On the other hand, many post-modernists, leftists and socialists openly appropriate communist symbols and culture without sincerely intending to follow through on storming winter palaces or seizing the means of production.

(13-08-2018, 08:57 PM)NZs no.3 Wrote: What do you think of Alex Jones being de-platormed?
I n t u i t i v e l y , I reckon if he's generally full of bad ideas then we don't need to de-platform him; he will out himself as unworthy of attention. That he gets so much attention suggests that there's something that he is saying that people want to hear, that they aren't hearing from other (more credible) sources. Which, especially in American media, seems to be a thing. They seem to be entrenched in a zero sum blame game.

But yeah, it makes it look like the powers that be are trying to muzzle Jones...


David Seymour has recently entered a private member bill: the Smaller Government Bill, which would reduce the number of electorates from 71 to 54, and eliminate Maori seats. It's bizarre that people like Don Brash are being deplatformed when there are actual, current politicians who share many of the same views. If 1 in every 100 (voting)people in New Zealand voted for the ACT party, how are these topics not legitimate debating points?

( On a side note, apparently Don Brash's Massey speech didn't focus at all on his current work with Hobson's Pledge and instead focused on his previous(uncontroversial) work with the National Party and as Reserve Bank governor. )
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#5
I reckon if he's generally full of bad ideas then we don't need to de-platform him; he will out himself as unworthy of attention.

Faulty logic.
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#6
(14-08-2018, 07:04 AM)Jargonion Wrote: Faulty logic.
faulty intuition!

tell me more though, what do you think we should do about Alex Jones and the like?
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#7
I suppose it boils down to a few things and, like all things, we need to start with semantics.

Let's define a right. A right is either A) A guaranteed privilege which can actually be revoked, or B) An inherent state which cannot, under any circumstances, be rightfully revoked, or C) Some other notion I wont entertain because it's either A or B.

If free speech is A), then yeah, let's let the authorities censor whomever they please. If you don't like who they censor, then it's just another voting issue like being mad that the government gives too many seats to the Maoris, or don't spend enough on mental health.

If free speech is B), then you just live your life, happy to be in a fantasy realm where rights are actually rights. Everyone's on equal footing, but some are smarter about it than others.

Then we have to decide if it's a governing body's responsibility to facilitate, in the case of freedom of speech, freedom of speech. I argue that it's not. Is not providing a platform the same as denying free speech all together? No. If anything, it's economics/politics, and the governing body would only allow you a platform if it ultimately serves their interests.

So, let's get on to Alex Jones and the like.

If these people are unworthy of attention, they will deplatform themselves. If they're full of bad ideas, we need to deplatform them because that's how bandwagons form. That's how Trump rose to power, that's how cults form, and that's how unrest or disharmony in general is created. We can either have a healthy, unstable world filled with lots of conflicting ideas prompting change, or we can control the messages and maintain or at least retain control over the status quo.

???????
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#8
(13-08-2018, 10:35 PM)crispier taco Wrote: Hey so some social justice warrior types frame video games as rape propaganda, and we should draw lines at rapists. While it's obviously a false equivalence, most of the most extreme white nationalist types will deny being (neo)Nazis even if appropriating Nazi culture and symbols.

Yeah, see, I've thought of this. It's sorta like when a lot of people voted for Trump even though they obviosuly don't agree with much he says. I think its just to push back at the radical left? People don't align with the radical left or where its going, so push back using the right.

(13-08-2018, 10:35 PM)crispier taco Wrote: On the other hand, many post-modernists, leftists and socialists openly appropriate communist symbols and culture without sincerely intending to follow through on storming winter palaces or seizing the means of production.

Yeah I think this is cause they are mostly idiots. How can you even use those symbols without knowing what they stood for or what was done under them. Nazis included.


(13-08-2018, 10:35 PM)crispier taco Wrote: But yeah, it makes it look like the powers that be are trying to muzzle Jones...

Yeah hes LOVING this atm. He's talking up a storm on Twitter and posting 15 min videos in his tweets on a site where so few characters are used. He reckons the goverment has just proved that he has the info the masses need to hear.
Liams Wrote:make a car out of scrap metal from genie lamps
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#9
(14-08-2018, 07:12 PM)Jargonion Wrote: We can either have a healthy, unstable world filled with lots of conflicting ideas prompting change, or we can control the messages and maintain or at least retain control over the status quo.

Right so yeah, we have to decide between stability and opportunity to develop. I'd hope we can find a middle ground... although...

(14-08-2018, 07:17 PM)NZs no.3 Wrote: I think its just to push back at the radical left? People don't align with the radical left or where its going, so push back using the right.

It seems like being reactionary is the worst? Don't we need more than 2 sides to be on (ideally many more than 2 sides) for these conversations to have any nuance? If Americans could choose to vote for any of the 23 presidential candidates, each having their own party, wouldn't be a more reasonable clusterfuck than either a Trump or Clinton sole victory?

also, aren't we all happy that so many of our governments (current and past) rely on coalition building?
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#10
(13-08-2018, 10:35 PM)crispier taco Wrote:
(13-08-2018, 08:57 PM)NZs no.3 Wrote: I'm pretty sure we have a reasonable tolerance line which we can draw at racist ol Nazi's.
Hey so some social justice warrior types frame video games as rape propaganda, and we should draw lines at rapists. While it's obviously a false equivalence, most of the most extreme white nationalist types will deny being (neo)Nazis even if appropriating Nazi culture and symbols.

On the other hand, many post-modernists, leftists and socialists openly appropriate communist symbols and culture without sincerely intending to follow through on storming winter palaces or seizing the means of production.

You bring up a good point - neo-nazi's should be more sensitive with where they get their logos. It's truly cultural appropriation.
Let me just post that on my tumblr.
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